Senator Rose-May Poirier

Senator Poirier: Thanks to the three of you for your presentations. As my question concerns a topic that I’ve already addressed with Mr. Corbeil, I’ll ask him my first question, which is quite broad. As he knows, the 4.4% target clearly hasn’t been reached. Regardless of the figure established as a target, mechanisms must be in place for us to be able to reach those targets. There is a shortage of mechanisms and programs.

What mechanisms or programs should be put in place to improve francophone immigration? What should the federal government do to improve francophone immigration?

I’m asking you the question, Mr. Corbeil, but if the other two witnesses have anything to add, they may do so, time permitting.

Mr. Corbeil: Thank you, senator. Very briefly, I would say that, from the outset, we should stick to the fact that there are no francophone pool issues outside Canada. Over the years, several studies conducted, for example, by the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie and the Observatoire démographique et statistique de l’espace francophone have shown that the growth rate of the francophonie in Africa is really impressive. According to data made available in the past few weeks, there are more than 320 million francophones in the world, and the greatest growth is in Africa.

However, what we’re seeing is that very few African migrants come to Canada, even though recent immigrants to areas outside Quebec, by which I mean those who have landed in the past five years, come largely from African countries. Consequently, the main challenge, in my mind, is to try to understand why those immigrants seem to prefer Europe, for example, or the United States over Canada.

There is a credential recognition issue. Ultimately, it seems that we can’t reach or admit an adequate number of immigrants. I think we have to understand why the government hasn’t met these targets in the past 15 years and what right and wrong actions it took. We don’t have that information. We have very little information on the subject.

Consequently, we should try to understand how the relationship between Canada and African immigrants can be established, for example. Why can’t we attract more immigrants who are nonetheless highly educated?

Senator Poirier: Do the other witnesses have anything to add?

Mr. Sall: African immigrants don’t go to Europe because they prefer it. Canada has a very good image among the African countries. The problem is related more to immigration procedures. International students, for example, often go to Europe. Why? Because it’s cheaper. For example, tuition fees are lower. They have relatives there, but, at the same time, tuition is cheaper.

Moreover, one of the recommendations I would make would be to lower the tuition fees of Canadian universities for international francophone students. The University of Ottawa has taken a step in that direction, which is attracting a lot of international francophone students. Other universities should follow that example, and, for that to happen, a system of scholarships and bursaries should be put in place to lower costs in that area.

Credentialed immigrants also want to come to Canada. The problem is that there are only two embassies in Africa that can review their files, our embassies in Dakar and Nairobi. As you can understand, the procedures are complicated on a continent where only two Canadian embassies can process files.

Their credentials aren’t recognized in many instances, which is another reason why they find it hard to immigrate to Canada.

Lastly, don’t forget that, to date, western Europe has enjoyed very positive advertising and is very attractive to francophone immigrants. That’s starting for Africa, but the pace is still too slow for my taste.

The Chair: Briefly, Mr. Traisnel, did you want to speak?

Mr. Traisnel: Very briefly. I entirely agree with what my colleagues have said.

As regards immigration pools, perhaps an effort should be made to refine relations with those pools, simply by reasoning about networks and thus introducing a fairly qualitative aspect. When you ask people what brought them here, you realize that certain profiles are more particularly interested in Canada. Perhaps an effort can be made to promote francophone communities to certain categories of people most likely to be interested in Destination Canada, to use the name of a forum that’s held in Paris every year.

International students are another promising pool that can be characterized as such, simply because we realize that they tick many important boxes. Earlier I discussed the convergence of wills and political intentions with immigrants’ interests. Here we’re discussing exactly that type of objective since we’re dealing with people who meet the needs of the Canadian labour market and who, in many instances, want to settle in Canada since they’re international students who are also francophone.

Senator Poirier: Thank you. My speaking time is up, but I’d like to be on the list for the second round.

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Senator Poirier: Thanks to our witnesses for being here. I have only one question, and it’s about research and data collection.

Based on your experience, does the government need to improve its data collection on francophone immigration to improve francophone immigration policies?

If so, what data do you feel would be useful in increasing francophone immigration to francophone minority communities?

Mr. Martel: Thank you for that interesting question, senator.

Jean-Pierre Corbeil, in the first part of the committee meeting, also mentioned that. There is already a lot of data available, including census information. Of course we have the “traditional” variables that have been used in the census a number of times now, such as first language learned, language spoken most often at home and knowledge of the official languages.

We added some other factors to those I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation, like language of schooling, to meet the requirement to collect data on children eligible for schooling in the minority language.

There is the data being added as we speak. We also have the new post-census language survey which will soon be used to collect data.

I therefore believe that we now have a major body of information. We also have some administrative data, for example about the children who attend minority-language schools across Canada. This information is being collected by Statistics Canada at the provincial and territorial level, and of course there is the well-known Canadian immigration database that was referred to by Jean-Pierre Corbeil in the first part of this meeting.

There is already a lot of data. We added to this body of data in 2021 and will soon do so in 2022. So that’s my answer. I think that we can do a great deal with the existing data.

One thing you mentioned was internal migration by francophones. We can already obtain a pretty good approximation with the mobility data in the census. Canadians are asked: “Where did you live one year ago?” and “Where did you live five years ago?” By looking at the answers to these questions in the census, we can learn a lot about the mobility of Canadians, including immigrants and francophone immigrants.

I’ll stop there. Perhaps Éric might like to add something?

Éric Caron Malenfant, Assistant Director, Centre for Demography, Statistics Canada: No. That covers the sources of current and future data pretty well.

Senator Poirier: If you think the amount of data you have is enough to meet requirements, why are we unable to meet the immigration targets?

We haven’t met the targets; we haven’t even reached 4%. The data is there to provide an answer, but at the same time, it doesn’t meet our needs.

Mr. Martel: One of the things Statistics Canada suggested, and which is useful in decision-making, is what I referred to in my speech, and that’s demographic projections.

It’s only to be expected that, as a demographer, I would want to mention how useful demographic projects can be, because these projections make it possible for us today to test multiple evolution scenarios for one or more factors at the same time. We can understand the isolated effect of a single factor to see population trajectories for the future.

Statistics Canada recently made some new projection tools available to decision-makers that will clarify debates and perhaps even make better-informed decisions for the future of these communities.

Senator Poirier: Do I have a little bit of time left?

The Chair: Yes, just a bit. Go ahead.

Senator Poirier: My question is about the most recent 4.4% target. What do you believe are the factors, federal or provincial, that led to this failure?

Do we need to make adjustments? Was the target wrong from the outset?

Mr. Martel: That too is a very appropriate question.

My answer would be to tell you, once again thanks to our projections, that we could do things like test of various levels in the composition of francophone immigration within Canadian immigration generally, particularly in view of the new levels that the Department of Immigration recently announced. Using the tools we now have, and which we did not have 10 or 5 years ago, we could easily test different levels and acquire an understanding of a threshold, for example, that would maintain the demographic weight in a number of francophone communities outside Quebec, while continuing to use a regional approach. It would even be possible to set a proportion for certain regions in relation to other regions.

That’s how I think our new tools will enable us to improve the decisions that you will soon be making.

Senator Poirier: Thank you very much.