Senator Rose-May Poirier

Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentation. I hope you had a good trip here this morning. I just have a few questions because I know that many of my colleagues probably have questions as well. First, congratulations on the very good work you are doing. It is very much appreciated. Acadians are no doubt grateful for all the promotion you are doing for them to ensure access to services in the language of their choice across Canada.

We visited anglophone and francophone schools during the hearings yesterday and spoke with Acadians and other people who were studying in a French immersion program. I am aware that you are an Acadian society, but you have relations with other francophone groups in Canada that consist not necessarily Acadians but perhaps francophiles or anglophones studying in French immersion? Do you have connections with other organizations that help more forcefully meet our need to be respected in our language and to be served in our language?

Mr. Lord-Giroux: I can answer you first, and then Véronique will continue. Our organization relies greatly on the funding it receives from Canadian Heritage. Consequently, we use the Roadmap on Official Languages as our guideline. I do not believe a great deal of funding is currently being granted to encourage closer relations between Acadian and francophone minority and francophile organizations. That is definitely something we could work on. Many of our activities may benefit all those who speak French in the Atlantic region regardless of their attachment to Acadia.

Ms. Mallet: The Société Nationale de l’Acadie is the representative organization of the Acadian people. In our vision of what the Acadian people represent, the Acadian people identifies with the collective Acadian project. It is not our purpose to judge a person’s background, whether that person speaks French or English or was born in Canada or elsewhere. We do not think we should judge. We are trying to mobilize the energies of those who want to take part in the collective Acadian project.

On a more technical note, the SNA is somewhat open to the anglophone majority, particularly through the World Acadian Congress, which is an initiative of the Société Nationale de l’Acadie. We also believe that a major popular gathering lends itself very well to this kind of occasion. We see the effect this had with the first World Acadian Congress in 1994, when many Acadians — people who had Acadian names but had lost their attachment to the language and culture over the years — woke up and found themselves in an Acadian environment. The World Acadian Congress initiative is a very important opportunity to establish ties with the community.

Senator Poirier: Thank you. I am well aware of it. In 1994, I sat on the Saint-Louis municipal council. We were one of the municipalities most involved in the World Acadian Congress. My second question — I know you told me what your role was — is this: are you taking any steps to encourage people to continue living their culture and not losing it? Because a large part of our population, whether we like it or not, particularly in our province, is small, chooses to go study elsewhere and to live in a region that may be more anglophone and francophone. Do you do a lot of promotion to encourage people to retain their Acadian culture and their French language?

Mr. Lord-Giroux: I think that is our central objective and, personally, the reason why I am involved in the SNA. I want to ensure that the population of the Atlantic region can retain French and live in that language in an entirely acceptable manner. You asked whether we make an effort to retain the Acadian identity elsewhere in the country. Yes, but our financial and human resources are definitely limited. Our efforts focus mainly on the Atlantic region. That is our main playing field, but sometimes we have a chance to go elsewhere in the country. We try to stay in touch with the members of our Acadian diaspora in those locations.

Senator Poirier: Can you give us a few examples of the activities you organize for that purpose?

Mr. Lord-Giroux: Yes. Véronique, you can go ahead.

Ms. Mallet: A large part of our programming is youth-based. As Senator Tardif mentioned, half of our members are youth organizations. Consequently, our activities mainly focus on youth and the importance of contributing to identity-building among young people. The Société Nationale de l’Acadie hosts the Acadia Youth Festival every year. The festival brings together young people from the Atlantic region who travel from province to province. We also have the Parlement jeunesse de l’Acadie, which is a biannual activity in which participants travel from one province to another. We also organize a youth event at every edition of the World Acadian Congress. Many of our activities are associated with the preservation of language and culture. We focus on the youth component with an emphasis on youth identity-building.

Senator Poirier: Perfect. Thank you for your recommendations.

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Senator Poirier: Thank you for your presentations. Ms. Cormier, I just wanted a brief clarification or more information on a topic you discussed: the number of students who are eligible to study in French and choose not to do so for one reason or another. Were you referring to students from kindergarten to Grade 12 or the post-secondary level, college or university?

Ms. Cormier: It was the school level. The percentage I cited comes from a study by Rodrigue Landry based on census data to determine which children were eligible under section 23 to attend French-language school in a minority setting. He concluded that approximately 50 per cent of children who are eligible attend French-language schools. According to the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires de langue française, the figure is approximately 160,000 students in our minority schools. So we could have 160,000 more.

Senator Poirier: Does the research explain the reason why? Is it because there is a shortage of francophone schools in the region where they live? Is it because some families have decided to enrol their children in anglophone rather than francophone schools?

Ms. Cormier: Both in some instances. In some cases, the school is too far away. If there is an anglophone school across the street, the parents will send their children there because it is easier than having their children travel 45 minutes by bus. In other cases, it is a matter of choice or a question of insecurity or a feeling of incompetence. In other cases still, some feel that the francophone school is not as good as the anglophone school, that there is less choice. Some studies explain the motivations and reasons why parents make those decisions. If we can intervene at the early childhood stage, that can often influence the decision to enrol a child at a French-language school.

Senator Poirier: Are there any rules as to whether a student may be admitted to an anglophone or francophone school provided one of the parents speaks the language of that school? For example, a student may not go to an anglophone school if both parents are francophone, and vice versa. If both parents are anglophone, the child may not be admitted to a francophone school. I thought that rule was in effect in New Brunswick, but perhaps not elsewhere, no?

Ms. Cormier: That is true for French-language schools. To attend French schools, students or parents must meet one of the three section 23 criteria: that the parent’s first language learned and still understood is French, that the parent previously attended a French-language school, or that the parent had another child attending a French-language school. At least one parent must meet the criteria. This is true for French-language schools but not for English-language schools. English-language schools are the schools of the majority. They are the schools for everyone. Anyone may enrol a child in those schools, even if the child does not speak the language of the school. However, there are minor differences in New Brunswick. Under the act, children who speak French should attend French schools. If they speak English, they may nevertheless attend French schools. That is the difference.

Senator Poirier: Would you like to comment?

Mr. Wade: Yes, I just wanted to comment because earlier we talked about the cleavage between Acadians, who are the people who have a filial relationship to the language, and francophones, but section 23 somewhat confirms that connection as well. Some people have access to French-language schools as a result of their genealogy, while others do not. That is something the Official Languages Act cannot touch because this is a Charter provision, but the Canadian government uses somewhat the same logic regarding schools, and that is a problem for immigrants. For example, to have access to French-language schools, immigrants must often file an application with the school board. The application will be accepted if it is found that they meet certain criteria, but access is really quite limited. I think I understand the reasons why that was done, but it is also a challenge for the potential growth of our communities.

Mr. Forgues: I have an additional piece of information. We lose approximately half the children of rights-holders in the school system. You should also know that we lose even more at the secondary level. There is a percentage — I do not remember the exact figure; perhaps Marianne does — but a significant percentage of students decide to attend English-language schools when they reach the secondary level.

Senator Poirier: I have a final question, with your permission, Madam Chair. Most of the students who study in French, either at university or at one of our community colleges, have French as their mother tongue. However, what percentage of students do not have French as their mother tongue but took a French immersion program starting in Grade 1 or Grade 3 and decided to continue their studies at a French-language institution after Grade 12? Do you have an idea of the percentage?

Ms. Violette: I do not know the figures, but it must be a really small number because we recently received the figures. Twenty per cent of students at the University of Moncton are international students. Consequently, French is not the mother tongue of many of them. That does not answer your question because these are international students. I believe that 60 per cent or 70 per cent come from New Brunswick’s francophone schools, and the remainder includes students from other provinces and New Brunswick’s immersion program. So we are talking about a small percentage.

We are seeing more and more of them. I see more and more in my courses. I believe we have conducted campaigns to attract them because I have been teaching for nearly 10 years now, and there were none when I started. Now I have two or three every year. So something is happening. There is a potential source of students, but it remains very limited.

Senator Poirier: Thank you.

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Senator Poirier: My first question is for Ms. Lecky of Canadian Parents for French. In your presentation, you talked about the core French program. Yesterday, in our visits to the school we were at the Athena school in the Summerside area. We spoke to Grade 9 students who were in the core French program. In speaking with them, there was about probably 15 or 16 sitting around the table and the rest of the students from that class were sitting in the back.

First off, we asked if in taking core French they would consider themselves bilingual once they’re done taking it from Grades 4 to 9. From my understanding, the answer was no, that they did not feel they were competent in qualifying as French bilingual.

We asked that if it was not obligatory to take core French education, that it was optional, how many among the group would take it? Only three or four answered that they would take it, but others answered that they would take it if the program was changed. They felt that in the core program they were learning how to say certain words like school supply equipment; an eraser, “un effaceur.” Word to word. But they were not really learning how to communicate and to speak if they met with a French person.

Some mentioned that if that ability would be offered more in the core program or if there was more advancement and they were able to learn more, they would have more of an interest in taking it.

You recommended that you would like to see it be mandatory from K to 12. Are you thinking of the K to 12, if that would ever happen, to continue the core as it is now, or would you want to see it enhanced a little more to give the ability to the students to be able to learn it a little bit more?

I don’t think it would be as much as the French immersion. I’m not sure. The core program is not quite the same thing.

I was just curious to have your comments on that.

Ms. Lecky: Thank you. I should probably have been more specific.

There’s a new core French program. Actually René is more of an expert on it; I’m not even close. It was rolled out in 4, 5 and 6. It’s currently being rolled out in 7, 8 and 9. So those Grade 9 students at Athena that you talked about are just starting a new core French program.

The new core French program, from all I understand, is really based on that authentic oral competency.

Are you familiar with intensive French? Intensive French really is a literacy-based program. The old core, I think we would all agree, didn’t have and doesn’t have the outcomes that the school system I think expected and set it up for.

The idea now is that they’re to spend more time on writing and authentic communication; doing things rather than reiterating lists of verbs and those kinds of things. Again, I think René can speak to that.

I grew up in Manitoba, and at the time we had core French right from the start. I can remember having core French in Grade 1. Even though my French is almost non-existent today, I still go back to that.

I think it’s a matter of time on task. If the program is going to be a little less than an immersion program, then the time that it’s being taught or the time that the students are able to access it will give us better results in the end.

René, did you want to say anything about that?

Mr. Hurtubise: You’re doing a good job.

Very briefly, there’s a new core French program. We’re in our last year, the third year of the rollout in 4, 5, 6, and we’re starting the work in 7, 8 and 9 to precisely address what you have mentioned.

We have another study through CMEC that we are doing through the FSL engagement of students. We know that students are engaged. They have a sentiment of competency and of relevance — “Why am I learning that?” — and the whole collaboration piece: “There are other kids like me who like it.” We are working right now on that with the new core French program.

The challenge is that it’s still 10 percent of the day. How do you develop a language 10 percent of the day? There’s a lot on the plate in education.

I think the new core French program addresses partly what you have highlighted.

[Translation]

Senator Poirier: I have another question, and anyone may answer it. Is there a partnership between the francophone schools and schools that offer French immersion programs in Prince Edward Island to promote the French language? Is there a cultural, social, educational, or sports partnership between the two? Is there is some way or thing to help increase the number of people who identify as bilingual in Prince Edward Island?

Mr. Cyr: Attempts at partnerships have been made in the past, and some partnerships are still being formed. They are not necessarily related to language. A school that does not have enough students to make up a sports team will form a partnership with an anglophone school near it, where possible.

However, I am going to go back to the first part of my answer. When we tried some experiments in the Charlottetown area between École François-Buote and Charlottetown Rural and Colonel Gray, two big English high schools, the idea was first that immersion students from Charlottetown Rural or Colonel Gray could come to our school for one class per day and vice versa. Since there were more students at the anglophone schools, they were able to offer programs that the small francophone school could not. We realized that the exchange was beneficial to a point, but also that the francophone school lost students because, when allowed to go to the English language school — the social aspect is extremely important at that age — those students liked it so much they decided to enrol there the following year. So we were losing our students.

We therefore terminated that program temporarily, and we have not found a way to continue it because, whether we like it or not, the education system is funded based on the number of students, and the number of students is often what makes it possible to offer programs. If we do not have enough students, we cannot offer specific programs. Consequently, the system works somewhat to the detriment of the Commission scolaire de langue française.

Senator Poirier: Thank you.